Hi,

I know you do not like VistaDB , but I am stuck with it and I would be very happy if LLBLGen pro could support it.

Regards.

Till you get some good answer from Frans. I'll just put a reference to the following thread: (Most probably you have read it, but just in case and for the record) http://www.llblgen.com/tinyforum/Messages.aspx?ThreadID=6347

VistaDB is one of those head-ache databases like MySql. When 3.0 was released, they said: no RIGHT JOIN and EXISTS queries. I can live with the absense of EXISTS, I can't live with the absense of RIGHT JOINs.

After a while they apparently added it, as now their website says that RIGHT JOINs are supported. Though I'm not going to add vistadb now, as there are other things with higher priorities than vistadb. Frankly I'm not sure if vistadb will be added in the future as well: the core reason is that it's likely to be used by a very small group of people: What's more efficient is SqlLite, which is free and has a larger userbase.

As I never ever want to have another MySql-drama, I'll likely never implement VistaDB support, unless there are no other features to spend time on.

Ok, I can understand your point of view. Now I need an embeddable database and SQLite seems to be a good one. There is Firebird too, this last one being supported bu LLBL. I can try to convert my VistaDB database to one on these. Which one will you recommend, and do you plan to support SQLite in a near future?

Thanks,

Christophe

Firebird embedded is supported now, so I'd opt for that. Just create the db on a firebird server installation, and then use the .fdb file with the embedded dll in your own application.

Sqllite is an option for future support, however there are no plans set in stone for that as of now.

Hello LLBLGen guys,

I read some of the posts about VistaDB and let me offer some comments. Our new VistaDB 3.0 is a brand new data engine developed entirely in C#. It is 100% fully managed and typesafe and it is the first commercially released database engine for .NET, Compact Framework and Mono to deliver this technology.

We designed 3.0 from scratch. The SQL query processor has been completely redesigned and is now compatible with T-SQL syntax. The the next 3.0 update build will feature a 1:1 relationship of our datatypes to SQL Server 2005, so we will ensure the highest possible degree of compatiblity allowing developers to migrate to and from VistaDB 3.0 between SQL Server. Our goal for VistaDB 3.0 is to be essentially a clone for SQL Server 20005 -- but featuring a very small 600kb singly-assembly footprint, fully managed architecture, .NET/CF and Mono support along with many more features over and above what the new SQL Compact Edition offers. Here is a link to some of the new SQL features: http://www.vistadb.net/engine_sql.asp

This list grows every release and not all features are listed. JOINS are now quite powerful, plus we have Views and CLR Procs.

I completely understand the difficulty of third party vendors deciding which vendor products to support (or not) because there is a lot of work involved and time is very valuable in our industry. As you can see from our Alexa rankings, VistaDB has gone from unknown to a rank of 38,000 in 2 years, and climbing, so there is clearly interest in our offerings. Our VistaDB 2.x release was good, but it did lack some features preventing it from gaining mass appeal. Well, 3.0 changes this dramatically.

I ask people to please be patient with us as we get 3.0 ready for official release over the next weeks and continue to polish it with free 3.x updates over the following months. We will give .NET developers a fantastic pure .NET database for building powerful applications using WinForms and ASP.NET --- and unlike the other databases, we are pure .NET. This is a good thing

thanks for letting me post

Anthony Carrabino www.vistadb.net

Frans,

In case you are still open to considering this... I'd like to put in my vote for a VistaDB driver. I've been evaluating their 11/13/2006 CTP release, and it looks very promising. For a small developer like myself, their 3.0 version -- when it's finished -- would be very attractive. You get one engine that works across Win/CF/Mono, with the ability to synchronize data between instances (they're looking at synchronization/replication in 2007, they say). There's also a server version planned. So -- if they can deliver all this -- it's a pretty good package. And the pricing and licensing terms are good as well.

Firebird is great on the desktop, but I can only find one aborted attempt to make it work on the CF. SQLite is attractive and cross-platform, but VistaDB seems more feature-rich, especially in terms of the promised data synchronization (which I think a lot of developers would be very grateful for, and which is absent in a lot of other databases, and hard to implement well independently). The compatibility with T-SQL and SQL 2005 datatypes is cool.

So: for a developer working on small applications, if I could use LLBLGen Pro and VistaDB together, I imagine I could get some good code-reuse across platforms. It would be pretty sweet.

Anyway, that's my two cents... Thanks for all the great work.

-- Vikram

Edited to add: In case the above sounds too much like a plug for VistaDB, let me say that I'm no way associated with the company. Just a time-starved dev trying to minimize the amount of products and technologies I have to learn and keep track of.

Hello,

I would like to add my support for a VistaDB driver .

Thanks,

TFISHER

VistaDB is on the list for v2.1. They've added the 2 remaining statements we needed (RIGHT JOINs and EXISTS) and we'll add support for it in v2.1.

Hi Frans,

You may have said in another thread, but what is the timeline for 2.1.

Thanks,

TFISHER

Not before end Q1 2007

Hello,

If that is the case, please try to get the VistaDB driver out with the current version of LLBLGen. There are several of us who would very much appreciate it.

Thanks,

TFISHER

tlf wrote:

Hello,

If that is the case, please try to get the VistaDB driver out with the current version of LLBLGen. There are several of us who would very much appreciate it.

Thanks,

TFISHER

That's not going to happen, sorry, as support for a new db is part of a new version, be it a minor version upgrade (2.1, 2.2 etc.) or a big version upgrade (2.0, 3.0). Supporting a db isn't just the driver, it's also templates, the DQE, tests, additions to the documentation etc.

So to avoid false promises: it will be part of v2.1, but wont be released before that date. If you need an embedded db, you should look at Firebird and its embedded variant. This setup is supported today by LLBLGen Pro.

Frans,

Excellent!

Thanks.

Vikram

Just curious if VistaDB support made it into the new 2.5 beta?

I didn't see it listed in the drop down.

Just spent a few hours reading and then playing with VistaDB. I really like it. I converted an existing SQL Express db using their migration tool. Created a new page and setup a connection and it was very quick. I've sent them a few pre-sale emails but I'm pretty sure I'll be purchasing v3 license tomorrow. It is better than Access because its syntax is T-SQL and will make my deployment and maintenance of small web apps really simple. no server product to keep track of just add the .dll to App_Code and the db file to App_Data.

Frans I REALLY hope you will add support for this in the final release of 2.5 if not an earlier beta. I was looking at Firebird but the tool for that is $150 and was not as impressive to me as VistaDB. I'm sure its a bit slower but I'm not using it to replace MySQL just yet, but I may after testing or when they release their server version.

Plus they have it on sale to build a client base and the price is reasonable at least from my perspective as a solo developer.

Edit [1h later] I couldn't wait. I read the whitepaper and went ahead and purchased the older v2 for my ASP apps and then the upgrade for v3. In that process I actually saved $61 because buying v2 then upgrading was cheaper than buying v3 outright total for both was $218. I'll start using it tomorrow.

Again I hope support for VistaDB will be available soon.

Nope, VistaDB has been cut. It's also that we won't add support soon. There are already a couple of embedded databases supported, and adding VistaDB adds literarly nothing.

Currently supported embedded db's: - Access - Firebird Embedded (which is simply firebird + the embedded dll. takes no extra effort and it's completely free)

Added in v2.5: - SqlServer CE Desktop

That isn't right at all.

It's on your list (see thread link below) on the beta forum. Plus you've stated it more than a few times that you were going to add it in v2.1.

On post http://www.llblgen.com/tinyforum/Messages.aspx?ThreadID=8811

Many of your customers have requested it and you told them it would be added.

I hope you will reconsider.

One because you've said it would be added in v2.1 a few times and explicitely on the beta post mentioned previously.

And I'm admittedly not an expert in this area at all. But since VistaDB is using the same syntax, in fact it claims 1 to 1 match with t-sql, that making a driver for it could almost be a copy past of the sql driver. Obviously you have to change out the SQLConnection and similar calls to a VistaDBConnection call but the meat of the code should be the same.

I looked into firebird but the admin tool for that open source db is $150. I spent a little more last night and got something that will work much better for me and my projects. I really never expected you to say it was dropped. Especially after reading posts that say it was going to be added in v2.1 and then v2.5.

:-(

briankb wrote:

That isn't right at all.

It's on your list (see thread link below) on the beta forum. Plus you've stated it more than a few times that you were going to add it in v2.1.

On post http://www.llblgen.com/tinyforum/Messages.aspx?ThreadID=8811

Many of your customers have requested it and you told them it would be added.

Yes, but we're not obligated to do that if there's no time left and it turns out to be an awkward addition after all. And 'many' isn't that true either. A couple have requested, the same amount has requested SqlServerCE Desktop support, and frankly I don't see that many usage for that database either.

In the beta there's a documentation file, it says what's in the beta and what's still to do. VistaDB isn't on that list. That's still on that page is unfortunate, but it's not that we thus have to do what's in that page no matter what. On that list are also things we rejected. Should I now spend a lot of time adding them too, even though they're rejected for valid reasons?

If putting up a list of things which we try to add to a next free upgrade suddenly binds us to add that no matter what, this is definitely the final time we've ever spoken about any feature we're going to add to any version.

We try to do our best to please as much people as possible. If we have to cut a feature at a last minute we will, and trust me, we do know that doing so will disappoint some people. There's however one thing I will never give up: the freedom to cut out a feature PRE-RTM if I have to, or not implement it if I can't.

I had to make a choice: add vistadb support or add some other features, and I chose for these other features and thus cut vistadb. This cut was made also because there are alternatives for vistadb, so cutting it wouldn't make it impossible for users to use an embedded database.

People request new features every time, we try to add them all however they're all put on a list. When we start an upgrade development cycle, we prioritize the features. There are features which didn't make it either to level 1, but are requested by people. These people are now perhaps disappointed, though we can't build in every feature requested.

I hope you will keep it on the list and make it available soon after this big upgrade is finished.

Obviously it's your product and you have to prioritize and make cuts as needed to move things along. I hope you will add it to the product anyway.

(I've altered the features post to reflect reality. )

briankb wrote:

I hope you will reconsider.

It doesn't look good for vistadb. I've seen how many problems devexpress had to get any performing code with xpo and vistadb... (I believe they cut support for vistadb out of xpo as well)

One because you've said it would be added in v2.1 a few times and explicitely on the beta post mentioned previously.

I also thought it would be possible yes. However development took more time than anticipated due to the complexity of some features, and things then get cut at the end. As I said in my previous post: there are alternatives, hence the reason not to push for vistadb. Also because it costs a lot of money, while alternatives don't.

No-one has ever requested SqlLite support, while that database is actually better usable as embedded db than vistadb: it's free, better performing and the tools are also free.

And I'm admittedly not an expert in this area at all. But since VistaDB is using the same syntax, in fact it claims 1 to 1 match with t-sql, that making a driver for it could almost be a copy past of the sql driver. Obviously you have to change out the SQLConnection and similar calls to a VistaDBConnection call but the meat of the code should be the same.

Adding another db to the pack of db's increases maintenance costs a lot: it has to be supported, a lot of tests have to be written, and every change in the code could affect a driver, DQE, template so the more db's, the more time spend on maintenance.

The DQE + templates might be usable from sqlserver (although I doubt that, a lot of time spend on writing dqe's and drivers is spend on tiny little details, like schema or no schema support, batching or no batching, how are identity fields retrieved etc. The driver is harder to write, as for every element you have to write custom queries which often dig deep into the meta-data to retrieve everything like fk's, pk's etc. It's not undoable, as a couple of people have written informix drivers+DQEs and Foxpro DQE's/drivers (which are available as sourcecode in our SVN repository)

We had to make the decision: do it or cut it. We cut it, unfortunately.

I looked into firebird but the admin tool for that open source db is $150. I spent a little more last night and got something that will work much better for me and my projects. I really never expected you to say it was dropped. Especially after reading posts that say it was going to be added in v2.1 and then v2.5. :-(

http://www.hk-software.net/ibexpert.com/content/doc_122943-5-10-00.php It's the personal edition of IBExpert. It's suitable for manipulating a db.

I understand the decision.

I just like VistaDB's features and I tried it out last night and it worked well. I jumped the gun a little buying the license and subscription but I did that with LLBLGen too :-) as it's way over my head.

briankb wrote:

I understand the decision.

I just like VistaDB's features and I tried it out last night and it worked well. I jumped the gun a little buying the license and subscription but I did that with LLBLGen too :-) as it's way over my head.

the feature scope of our product is perhaps massive, that doesn't mean you need to know everything to use it properly. Take one step at a time. We have a big example available (this forum) here: http://www.llblgen.com/hnd which illustrates some of the features.

I am a little disappointed that VistaDB will not be supported But LLBLGen Pro remains an excellent product so I will continue to use it Now, I do not like Firebird as an alternate embedded DB, so I wondering if anybody has some information about embedded mySQL. It seems to be a commercial product as some fees are to be payed for each software you sell. Is it working as embedded Firebird vs Firebird server, and last but not the least, is it supported by LLBLGen Pro?

Thanks,

Christophe