Has anyone seen this yet?
I've replied to it with a request that they mail us with their questions. I never saw a question from them, so I think it's good if they start asking some questions so we can actually help them 
. Finding it out on your own is ok, but at one point you have to draw the line.
I don't mind his rant, what I do mind is that he named the docs 'horrendous'. I'm not claiming the docs are the best in the world, but horrendous... ouch
Joined: 18-Jul-2005
Just as an update, I was the one who made the post, and I have made a clarification to the "horrendous" comment I made about the documentation, as well as clarifying the level of frustration I felt at the time I blogged that. I also added a second entry encouraging others to view your comments so they could see both sides of the story. Feel free to add more comments as appropriate, as I encourage the chance for people to see all sides of any story.
For the record, this forum has been very helpful in getting me past my last struggle with the product, and I have clarified that as well.
Didn't realize anyone actually found my blog. Sorry if the posting came off more than a vent. I did state that in the original post, but hopefully I have clarified that more since for anyone else who stumbles upon my blog.
No problem I'm glad you're finally up and running.
Joined: 26-Oct-2003
Wow. That's about all I can say. Having read the post, and understanding that it is now out in the void, I have to vehemently disagree. You're going to get a lot of posts like this one, if not actually posted, then in the minds of many loyal users of LLBLGen Pro.
I was going to write a whole post about how completely wrong you are, but that would be bad. Experience is experience. Let's just say that I hope from here on out you experience the utter pleasure of having 30%-50% of your code generated for you, of working with the powerful paradigms used by the framework, and the wonder of having the relational model completely abstracted from you. All that and throw in complex databinding over strongly typed entities...
We welcome you to participate in the community and draw from it. There are some amazingly smart and experienced people here, not to mention Frans himself, who are all willing to help with whatever problems you may experience with the product.
Jeff...
AZWolf7 wrote:
Didn't realize anyone actually found my blog.
You have at least 2 subscribers to your blog on bloglines (I have no idea who the other person is)
I was only pointing out your blog so that Frans could get some real-world feedback and provide you some assistance. I think you have some valid criticisms - I also found LLBLGen to have a rather steep learning curve and more than a little frustrating at times (and sometimes the syntax is a little verbose cough). I would argue that the documentation is some of the best I've seen and very comprehensive, I actually use it pretty often.
I've come to love the power and flexibility and it's easily the most powerful tool I use next to Visual Studio (and a lot less buggy!). LLBLGen has easily been the best software purchase my company has made. I think the feature set has practically doubled since we initially bought it! I sincerely would have a hard time developing data driven apps without it.
Joined: 22-Feb-2005
You are very, very lucky that Frans doesn't allow flames on this board.
Edit: (this was intended for the guy with the blog, not Cadmium).
Joined: 18-Aug-2003
This is why I have neither a blog, a good cooking pan, or a permit to carry a gun.
If I had any of the three, one day or another, someone's going to die...
Joined: 18-Jul-2005
Well, it's no good to complain unless you offer some kind of suggestion, so here goes. With the documentation, I might recommend a couple of things. First, even before the Concepts book, I would throw in a MS style walkthrough. It can very briefly introduce the concepts (with a link to the particular concept described) while using Northwind or pubs to generate a particular pattern.
Secondly, a new user comes in and looks at a page of documentation, and can be overwhelmed. I know I was. Yes, there is a LOT of documentation, and while that can be a good thing, the typical human mind grasps concepts better in small chunks. I wish I knew where to point you to what are considered best practices for technical writing in terms of optimal size, and maybe when I get a chance I will look into it and come back and post a link. But if there's a way to shrink it down I would think it would be well worth it to do it(look again as MS style documentation in the MSDN and see what I mean -- lots of links, smaller discussions on each page with an example of the concept presented).
Can't afford to tick off 50% of my subscribers, that's for sure. Some day when I am not working 16 hours a day, I have some pretty neat things to post (IMHO), but when you are faced with billable work versus blogging, blogging goes to the wayside. What are the odds that one of my two subscribers would be a LLBLGen fan? As a poker player, I can tell you it's immense!
As far as the comment on flaming someone made, if you feel it's warranted, head on over to my blog and do it, I won't censor it. I do however reserve the right to flame right back if it becomes a personal attack. I was posting an opinion, which I think everyone has a right to do that. I re-read my original comments, and at least twice I stated it was a vent. I always welcome open discussion on everything from politics to programming, and fortuntely that's what this has become.
AZWolf7 wrote:
Well, it's no good to complain unless you offer some kind of suggestion, so here goes. With the documentation, I might recommend a couple of things. First, even before the Concepts book, I would throw in a MS style walkthrough. It can very briefly introduce the concepts (with a link to the particular concept described) while using Northwind or pubs to generate a particular pattern.
Thanks, I'll look into that to see that being added to the docs in the next version/upgrade
Secondly, a new user comes in and looks at a page of documentation, and can be overwhelmed. I know I was. Yes, there is a LOT of documentation, and while that can be a good thing, the typical human mind grasps concepts better in small chunks. I wish I knew where to point you to what are considered best practices for technical writing in terms of optimal size, and maybe when I get a chance I will look into it and come back and post a link. But if there's a way to shrink it down I would think it would be well worth it to do it(look again as MS style documentation in the MSDN and see what I mean -- lots of links, smaller discussions on each page with an example of the concept presented).
I think it's a matter of taste/what you're used to. I personally always find a smaller page with 20 links horrible, as I have to click away from the page I was, and after several pages, how to come back to that original page? So I always use the TOC tree.
I did try to get it easier for people to step in and just try things out by the getting started and the how-do-I section. I know a lot of people will just jump in and run into the wall, get up, run into the same wall, get up again, and then notice the wall. That's why the getting started page brings the stuff in the order it does, it deliberately suggests to do the how-do-I section, to try things out, even if you know the outcome.
A good example I guess is my first experiences with generics which will be available in .NET 2.0. I read a lot about them, and thought "I understand them well!", well.... no. I tried to write one single simple class and I already made several errors and I didn't know why the code didn't compile (and had probably the same feeling you had when you couldn't get the generated code to do what you wanted 
). I went back to the documentation, but that's 'generic' as in: it explains about generics, but not about the 1001 ways to fail with these things.
Turned out I simply had to practise it a bit, try things out I thought I understood, and after an hour it was OK and I grasped it.
I think a good way to get things up and running with LLBLGen Pro is to first read a little, then look at code like the petshop example or the winforms example and then try things out, for example by adding code to the petshop example or adding code to the winforms example. How does it work, what is the effect of what....
Just mess with the examples, it won't hurt anyone, as the databases they're using are example databases and not your production boxes.
Can't afford to tick off 50% of my subscribers, that's for sure.
Heh I feel your pain about blogging and lack of time I have too a set of things I want to write about but the time ... always the time....
As far as the comment on flaming someone made, if you feel it's warranted, head on over to my blog and do it, I won't censor it. I do however reserve the right to flame right back if it becomes a personal attack. I was posting an opinion, which I think everyone has a right to do that. I re-read my original comments, and at least twice I stated it was a vent. I always welcome open discussion on everything from politics to programming, and fortuntely that's what this has become.
I don't mind if someone vents, I do that a lot too . I just wondered why you hadn't asked us questions sooner so you could have saved yourself these problems . But that's all, I don't expect everybody to be happy, that's a thing that will never be the case and if someone vents about LLBLGen Pro, well, it shows they care, so that's something .